Re-powering

stevewy · Post by **stevewy** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:40 am

Whew, am I glad I found this forum. It looks like a great place to get some honest answers and share in others experience. I have a 1978 33' Flybridge Cruiser (Convertible), that I have owned for 15 years. Over the years I have gutted and remodeled the interior, added radar and other electronics, and replaced much of the original equipment. I am very happy with the boat, and even though I got a good deal on the original purchase, I have invested a fair amount of money in the updates. WhatI haven't done is re-power. I have the original 454's/330 hp and to be honest I think they're beginning to get tired. A few years ago I had upper re-builds on both. Most of my boating has been local weekend trips (within a 60 mile radius), but am now retired and would enjoy doing some more extended cruising. I often travel in groups, so my speed is always an issue. I cruise at about 18-20 MPH and top out at 24. On the other hand, I always have a comfortable ride, even though it takes me more time to get there. Currently I have an opportunity to pick up a pair of 385HP Cat diesels at a very good price. Brand new! The engines, trans, exhaust changes, shafts, struts, props, and labor for the install is about $30K. So, a few questions, answers, and advice from other Bertram owners would be greatly appreciated: 1) Is the $30K worth it for this old of a boat? 2) What speed difference will I get? 3) Will there be significant fuel economy? 4) Without having insullation, how bad will the noise be? 5) Will my wife adjust to the smell of diesels? 6) Any general ideas or information about converting from gas to diesels? 7) Because of the boats style (displacement hull) is it possible to get better performance from newer gas engines....or, would doing a rebuild with a hotter cam and some carb changes be worth considering? Thank you in advance for any help/advice you have to offer Steve

Post by **dougl33** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:16 am

Steve, Welcome aboard! A few questions about these "brand new" Cats? What model are they? No offense, but I find it hard to believe that you can get brand new motors and gears for $30K, let alone all the other gear and install as well. Something doesn't seem right here. Some food for thought: A pair of brand new Cummins 5.9QSB's with gears will run around $60K-$65K. A pair of brand new Yanmar LY's with gears will cost pretty much the same. A pair of factory re-man'd Cummins 5.9 6BTA's 330b's (315hp) with gears will run around $36K-$40K. Give us a little more info. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

smanni · Post by **smanni** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:26 am

Steve - if you dont take that opportunity, I WILL - If it is legit - 30k for brand new CATS - as long as they are not 3116's, Give me the location and I will take my boat there. All kidding aside - repowers are usually like 60k-90k

stevewy · Post by **stevewy** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:36 am

Doug L, Thanks for the quick reply. I heard of these engines through a friend at a marina I was visiting this past weekend. I haven't met with the owner as yet, and am planning on doing so tomorrow. After reading your reply I called the owner and asked for the model. It turns out, I have a bunch of information wrong! The price I quoted is what he is asking, but they aren't CAT's. The motors are "B Series" Cummins, are 350 hp, and have 50 hours on them. They came out of a burned boat. Thanks again, for your reply.....what are your thoughts? Steve

Post by **dougl33** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:37 pm

OK. This is better, but we still need more info. For starters, what kind of boat are they coming out of? What year are the engines? What is the make and ratio of the transmissions? Cummins is a very good manufacturer, and the 6BTA (aka B-series) is a great motor. I'm not familar with a 350hp variant though. Most hp versions of the 6BTA were: 220hp, 270hp, 300hp, 315hp (330b), 355hp (370B) I'm assuming the $30K price tag is for the motors and gears only. I have a set of 300hp 6BTA's in my 86 FBC. See this thread for particulars: http://www.bertram33.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=896 Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

stevewy · Post by **stevewy** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:12 pm

Doug, Thank you sooooooo much for the information. As you can tell, I'm no mechanic and really know little about the specs etc..,. This is a major decision for me. I retired a few years ago and obviously am concerned about how I spend my money. The person who has the engines is also the owner of a local marina where I docked for many summers. He's known locally as an outstanding engine man, and in fact did a complete rebuild on my port motor 13 years ago. I don't want to appear to naive,but all of the business I've done with him over the years has been a positive experience. I don't want to intrude on your time, but getting your input (based on both your knowledge and experience) is a big help for me in this decision making process. Here is where I'm at and what I know as of now: The engines are B series Cummins, 350 hp. He wants $18K for the engines. In our phone conversation, I asked him about trans and the other stuff. He told me he could hook me up with the transmissions for $2K a piece. He didn't specify the type. He also said he would do all of the labor for $2K. Changes for fuel lines and the new exhaust runs another $2K. I have 1 1/4 shafts that I assume need to be changed. The shafts and struts cost me $2500 a few years ago, so I'm figuring about the same cost. Props I'm estimating at $1200 a piece. So, that's where I'm getting the $30K figure. Since I would be buying the engines and trans from him, I'm assuming that includes all of the gearing? Is this correct? I believe the engines came out of a Searay, but I'll find out for sure, and find out the year. When I meet with him tomorrow, what other questions should I be asking (in as "layman terms" as possible LOL)? My email address is uawsteve70@aol.com. I really appreciate your help and advice. If it's easier to communicate via email that's fine for me also, as I don't want to tie up too much forum space. As you can tell, I probably have lots of questions to ask and things to learn. Thanks again Steve

smanni · Post by **smanni** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:49 pm

Steve, Dont worry about forum space or asking questions. At one time or another we all fell across this great website with tons of questions and even the guys who were here from the begining still have tons of questions about our boats. I have been here for a couple years and I ask questions(some dumb ones) all the time. If you have a question - probably someone one here has the answer or someone else is wondering the same thing - so ask away. I think you will find a great group of boaters with a true passion for their Bertrams and more than willing to answer anything you can think of.

Post by **dougl33** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:16 pm

I'm still curious as to the make and year of the "donor" boat. It would go a long way to identifying the particular line of 6BTA's. FYI: Unless you changed them, you don't have inch and 1/4 shafts. You have inch and 3/8's. If these engines are truly 350hp (of which I'm doubtful) then you would still need to change shafts. Inch and half would be fine. You might not need to change the struts. You can have your existing struts bored out and use a thin wall bearing. Regards, Doug L. 1986 33 Bertram FBC Queen Elizabeth Marblehead, MA [img]http://www.bertram33.com/photogallery/p ... sabeth.jpg[/img]

captgene · Post by **captgene** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:17 pm

stevewy..I repowered my boat this year with the 8.1s A bit less for the engines , 13,880 ea. with Hurth gears. but I was into this job for about 50K, with me doing a lot of the work. We didn't cheap out on anything, but I figured $40K with a 10% expected overrun. So I would tack on at leas 25% for surprises. Gene Dugan Boca Raton, Fl. "Nauti Marie" 1989 33 FBC

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » Wed Sep 26, 2007 6:55 pm

Welcome aboard and congrats on your find. The situation sounds pretty good. I'm repowering my B35 under similar circumstances, though will be closer to the $45 to $50k range when the dust settles. One thing I did with my motors, mainly because one was blown, was to have them both checked out by a reputable 3rd party. Of course the blown motor got a new block and head and anything else that wasn't right. The other motor only had about 200hrs since over haul and got a complete checkup, new pumps and a few new injectors. If it were I considering the deal you describe, I'd be most concerned over getting the motors checked out and tuned up prior to install. Also, get the quotes in writing and ask what it does and does not include. Not that it will mean much as the project continues, its a good indication of what you'll be working with. Also ask how the "unforseen problems" will be handled. Another big part of the project is the condition of the engine room. I've got a couple of months of weekends and nights in cleaning things up and painting and I'm still not done. If you do it, I had great success with Marine Clean from POR15. I'd suspect the yard bought the motors for salvage and are willing to pass along at a modest profit and also get some yard work scheduled at a time when folks are scaling back on their boats?? If your not hung up on the sparkling white engine room you could save some time and effort by just cleaning up what you have. Check out the pictures under my repower thread for some before and after pics. http://www.bertram33.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=985 If you're not worried about Range & Resalethe so much, the new Crusaders are a great choice. In a way I hated to see my old crusaders go, they weren't tired at all, just thirsty[;)] Also, in the B35 they could hardly push the boat at a speed the hull liked. Good Luck with your decision. br, JohnD John D "Lady D" Bertram 35 Pasadena MD

jav · Post by **jav** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:37 am

Steve, I too would be concerned with your addition. The engine price seems reasonable if they are indeed low hour take-outs with a known good history. As far as the other charges, they seem light to me... especially the 2k for labor. This type of swap can be very labor intensive. I don't see any provisions for improved ventilation, increased water intake, guages, haul out and a host of other details that unless you plan on doing yourself, will take time and money. I too would expect closer to 40k by the time your done. But, don't let that scare you- those of us that have done this type of swap are happy we did it.

stevewy · Post by **stevewy** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:22 pm

Thanks to each of you who responded to my questions. After doing alot of checking and pricing, I've decided to stick with my old gas 454's. They're still running strong, and even though they're not ideal it just doesn't seem to be worth the high cost to repower. At least not at this point. If/when the time comes to repower, I'll probably stay with the gas. Your responses gave me a much better sense of what I was dealing with, helped me ask more intelligent questions, and ultimately saved from venturing into a very expensive propostion. This is a great site, that I now read often. Thanks again to each of you. Steve